Thursday, July 07, 2005

and it goes on(and on)

So on that old "Frankie Sucks" thread, someone posted a link to a site about borderline personality disorder, saying something like, "Frankie might be borderline". In responce to that, I dashed off THIS responce(note that both this and the previous post were from June of 2004. The margins are kinda fucked up, but you get the point):


Yeah, Frankie's prolly at LEAST borderline. It's hard to say though, borderline personality disorder is a pretty murky and vague diagnosis. It's kinda like, "Significantly extreme but generally inspecific unhappiness disorder".

Anyway, that website had some funny stuff on it. Everybody sit back and prepare for some classic line by line Clint commentary. This is all taken from an article on how "Responding to snipping and sarcasm while observing your limits", or, how to deal with borderline and/or bi-polar people(not that both disorders are the same thing):

>How to Respond to Mild Disagreement
>Following are some countermove tactics discussed by Susan Forward (1997).
>The Spin: The blackmailer(the BP) tells you that their motivations are pure and honorable,
>while yours are underhanded, unscrupulous, and self-serving. (It’s common for non-BPs who
>set limits to be split into the “bad” person.)

Yes, I've experienced that...

>Labeling: The blackmailer calls you names that reinforce their “spun” viewpoint and
>undermine your sense of reality. Many of these are actually projections."

Yeah, I've been called "controlling", "delusional", other junk by these types. Of course though, it should be kept in mind that I've spent a lot more time studying and participating in the dynamic of uhhhh "human disagreement" than your average person has, so it just goes to figure that I've been called more than a few names in my day.

I tells ya, you'd be surprised by how quickly a little name calling will totally derail a constructive conversation.

>"Pathologizing: The blackmailer tries to convince you that you are not just acting bad—you are
>bad (or sick, messed up, damaged, etc.). The higher the stakes, the more likely it is that this
>will happen. Many non-BP’s told us that the BPs in their lives accused them of having BPD. "

Ahhhhh, classic fucking tactic. You always try and portray your opponent as being mentally ill.

>"Enlisting Allies: The blackmailer asks other people to pressure you. This seems to be most
>common when the BP is a parent. In one case, a borderline mother showed up at her
>daughter’s door with four relatives to back her up."

Yup, you ALWAYS try and get people on your side, or at least make it look like you do. And I mean, crazy assholes have "enlisted allies" against me a decent amount of times, I guess. You see, in all my dealings with fuckholes, I've learned a lot about how to be really bitchy and underhanded in an argument. Know your enemy, I guess...

>"When responding, it’s important to stay away from arguments about whether your limits are
>right or wrong. Here are some sample responses to some typical statements:
>You’re a bad (selfish, etc.) person for making this request. "

Yup, I've gotten that from the "Frankie's" in my life...

>I understand you think that I’m a bad person, but I feel good about myself and I’m proud that
>I respect myself enough to set this limit."

Hmmmm, I've used versions of this before. The line about being proud that you respect yourself is a good one, albeit, it IS kind of "double speak" and it reads more like a diversionary tactic employed to confuse your opponent.

>You must hate me."

SOOOOO fucking typical...

>No, I don’t. In fact, I care about you so much that I want to work together to make our
>relationship better. I also care for and respect myself, which is why I’m bringing this up."

Aaaah, good ploy, once again emphasizing the respect you have for both yourself and the other person.

>You’re manipulative and controlling."


>I understand that you think I’m manipulative and controlling. I feel it’s your job to make
>choices and decide how you want to act. And it’s my job to think about the things I’m
>comfortable with and the things I’m not. I’ve thought about this a great deal, and this is very
>important to me and my own self-respect."

Damn, now there's a good responce to THAT accusation. What have I said when I(emphasis on "I") was accused of the same thing? I think it was something like, "What the fuck, I make you a CDR, one that you SAID you wanted, and you never even listened to it ONCE because you saw it as some ploy by me to change your whole personality? Gimme a fucking break, you asshole." heh heh...(that actually more or less happened twice, with two different girls. Seriously, don't say you'd like for me to make you a CDR and then NEVER listen to it, that shit pisses me off)

>You shouldn’t feel that way.
>Perhaps if you were in my position, you wouldn’t feel this way. We’re two different people, and > we each have our own beliefs, feelings, and opinions. I am asking you to respect my feelings,
>even if you don’t share them."

Hmmmm, this is not such a good argument, because it can easily be extended to "We're two different people, I'm suicidal and I cut myself, I'm just different from you."

>"Other non-argumentative responses include:
>q That’s your choice."

Eeeeeh, weak responce

>"q I would like to talk about this later when things have calmed down."

In general, thats a pretty good idea, except for when someone infinetly delays the conversation with that tactic.

>"q I need to think about this more."

Yup, ALWAYS a good idea

>"q There are no villains here. We just see things differently."

Yeah, the quickest way to get someone to stop listening to you is to label them the enemy.

>"q I’m not willing to take more than 50 percent of the responsibility."

Ha ha, I've been using THAT line for years, although I get more specific with the percentages.

>"q I know you don’t like this, but it’s not negotiable."

Mmmmmm, weak responce

>"q I know you want an answer right now, but I need time to think."

Again, generally a good idea as long shit isn't delayed forever.

>"q I won’t be put in the middle. You need to work that out with them."

Yup, I've said that before.

Okay, now we're getting into the good stuff:

>"How to Respond to Intense Disagreement"
>"When the BP increases the intensity of their responses, the implicit message is: “You are
>taking away my method of coping and I cannot stand these feelings—so change back!” If they
>shouted before, now they will rage out of control. If they previously accused you of being
>selfish, now they will call you the most self-centered, egotistical, and controlling person in the

Ahahahahaha, SOOOOOOO true...

>"If you want the BP to change, you have to be willing to make some changes yourself if the
>person does not observe your limits. Think about the things you can do, not the things you feel > you can’t do. Be creative. For example:
>1. You can change the subject or refuse to discuss the matter."

That works to some degree, but they'll always press the issue, hoping you'll break down and talk about it.

>"2. You can leave the room or hang up the phone."

Yup... Here's a quote of mine in reguards to a specific situation from a while back: "Okay, fuck this shit, this evening has now officially gotten too fucking insane for me. I'm leaving now."

>"3. You can change your phone number, get Caller ID, or change the door locks."

It's weird, not so long ago, barely ANYbody had Caller ID, now everybody does. Or no, wait, it's not weird, it makes complete and total sense... nobody answers before two rings nowadays.

>"4. You can go in your room and shut the door.
>5. You can be with the person only when a third party is present."

Yup, another decent idea, as long as that third party isn't some "ally" they're enlisted against you.

>"6. You can refuse to read the person’s mail or E-mail. You can change your Internet address."
I've done THAT within the last year. I hope there's a section in here about how you and the BP person shouldn't get drunk around each other. Now THERE's a good tip.

>"7. You can stop the car or refuse to drive with the person.
>8. You can say no firmly without changing your mind."

eeeeh, these are all too obvious, lemme skip to the entertaining ones.

>"12. You can stop seeing the person for awhile or break off the relationship altogether."

Gee, I would've NEVER thought of that one...

>"Naturally, all of these things will be perceived as abandonment by the person with BPD.
>That’s why you may need to gently point out that you are not acting against them, you are
>acting for yourself. Explain that your limits are essential to the health of the relationship and
>that you are asking the BP to observe them so you can be with them for a very long time."

Yeah, now there's some good advice... When they say, "How can you do this to me?" Tell 'em yer doing it to preserve your own mental health.

>"Consistency Is the Key"

It's true, ya really gotta stick with what you say and not relent. That's why it's important that you really think things out beforehand and don't rush to any rash decisions.

>"Within reason, we suggest you observe your limits in a gentle way every time—even when
>you’re tired or when you’d rather avoid a fight. You may not always be able to take immediate
> action, but you can’t let unacceptable behavior go unnoticed, or you may actually reinforce it.
>Again, preparation is key. Think through the “what ifs” and decide ahead of time, if you can,
>what steps you will take in each case."


>"Whatever your circumstances, you may need a great deal of love, support, and validation as
>you stand up for yourself. Some of the important people in your life may be able to support
>you; ask for their help. Other people may disagree with your actions because they feel it
>threatens their own relationship with the BP, or because it contradicts their own firmly held
>beliefs about how things should be. This is normal. Acknowledge their right to have their own
>opinions, and express your desire to keep your relationship with them separate from your
>relationship with the BP."

Yeah, seriously, if yer friends with both parties, do yer damnest to never take sides.

Anyway, here's some other interesting stuff from a piece that talks about BPD types that actually GET BETTER:

>"In our three years of interviewing BPs who greatly improved, we noticed several common
>threads. First and foremost, they accepted responsibility for their behavior and for their
>recovery. They also:
>Were willing to work through their inner pain instead of deflecting it onto other people or
>dealing with it through other means (e.g., drugs, self-mutilation, etc.). Frequently, they lapsed
>back into old patterns, but they got back on track."

Yeah, like the problems I had at like 19/20, the only reason I got over them is because I didn't drink and I just dealt with them straight on.

Actually, that brings up a good point:Why do I have such a strong emotional reaction to "Frankie Types"? Because for a short while, I was kinda somewhat like that myself, I got over it though. Ya know, and I still interact with those type of people(not so much in the last year though, thank god), and I KNOW just exactly how they're fucking up they're lives and I'm annoyed/frustrated that they aren't dealing with their shit and making any progress with it. I think I said it before, but the people I really respect are those that HAD problems and BEAT them. People that are capable of growth and change.

Also, there are people in family that totally have this shit, so I can't ever really fully "escape" these type of scenarios, which is further annoying. Seeing BPD types exibit that type of behavior for years on end will really do a lot to lower yer tolerance level to such things.

And futhermore, my reactions to these type of things are so directly emotional because I'm STILL trying to getting over my tendancy to want to save/help/protect people. All that is a good thing in moderation, but when it's applied to the "maybe kinda BPD type" you can just get yerself into a big codependant mess.

>"Had faith in themselves and believed that other people (or a supreme being) had faith in their
> inner worthiness-the "real them" behind the borderline symptoms. However, it was difficult
>for non-BPs to be supportive when the BP continued blaming all their problems on others."

Well, again, not that I was ever diagnosed BPD(or any other personality disorder...SWEET), but my faith in my own awesome-ness really pulled me through a lot of tough times.... heh heh

>"Had access to continued therapy with a competent clinician who did not take their actions
>personally, believed that recovery was possible, genuinely cared about them, were willing to
>stick with them in the long term, and who observed appropriate limits."

Yeah, finding the right therapist is extremely important.

>"Received the appropriate medication."

Eeeeeeh, a true statement, but the whole issue of meds can be WAAAAAY fucking murky.


Anyway, END OF POST...


Damn, when did I ever have all these experiences that I was talking about in that post? I mean, I VAGUELY remember that stuff happening, but I dunno. Has my whole life just been like a series of repressed trauma's? Maybe, I can't say for sure. I mean, I KNOW I was doing a lot of stuff back when I was 23 or 19 or whatever, there was a LOT of activity, even if it was only on a cerebral level sometimes. At this late date though, I'll be FUCKED if I can remember what any of that activity might have been. That's why it's fun to read these old posts/columns/emails of mine. Ya know, I get to see what I was doing back then, what girl I was pathetically obsessing about, crap like that, heh heh.